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	<title>Comments on: A Lack of Illumination:  the difference between the author/illustrator and the illustrator</title>
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	<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/</link>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222520</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222520</guid>
		<description>You know I hadn&#039;t really given it a lot of thought Simon, so in that sense I&#039;m guilty of overlooking it myself.  Such a limited brief must make the difficult task of summing up all the book&#039;s qualities in one picture very difficult indeed.

I remember, I think, that Germaine Greer took over a cover design of one of her books because she thought the designs the publisher was pushing didn&#039;t do the job, but it&#039;s easy to see why when you have limited space, time, and such a limited brief.

Of course these days the publishers are falling over themselves to punt &quot;celebrity&quot; books and all those need is a photograph of the Z-lister on the cover.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know I hadn&#8217;t really given it a lot of thought Simon, so in that sense I&#8217;m guilty of overlooking it myself.  Such a limited brief must make the difficult task of summing up all the book&#8217;s qualities in one picture very difficult indeed.</p>
<p>I remember, I think, that Germaine Greer took over a cover design of one of her books because she thought the designs the publisher was pushing didn&#8217;t do the job, but it&#8217;s easy to see why when you have limited space, time, and such a limited brief.</p>
<p>Of course these days the publishers are falling over themselves to punt &#8220;celebrity&#8221; books and all those need is a photograph of the Z-lister on the cover.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222505</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222505</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not quite illustration, but I&#039;ve spent a while at a design bureau doing book covers (every book has at least one visual, and that&#039;s the cover) and I&#039;ve learnt something there that might give another insight into the varying quality of images that go with the text:
Time
For covers, 90% of the time we had the author&#039;s name, a synopsys of the story (usually the text that went on the back) and about half a day.
There&#039;s very little actual interest from those making the book on actually giving or even allowing the effort to make a meaningful visual to go with the text.
And there&#039;s the thing that pictures in books are considered to be something that&#039;s just for children even though it&#039;s the first impression (people most often do judge a book by it&#039;s cover after all)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not quite illustration, but I&#8217;ve spent a while at a design bureau doing book covers (every book has at least one visual, and that&#8217;s the cover) and I&#8217;ve learnt something there that might give another insight into the varying quality of images that go with the text:<br />
Time<br />
For covers, 90% of the time we had the author&#8217;s name, a synopsys of the story (usually the text that went on the back) and about half a day.<br />
There&#8217;s very little actual interest from those making the book on actually giving or even allowing the effort to make a meaningful visual to go with the text.<br />
And there&#8217;s the thing that pictures in books are considered to be something that&#8217;s just for children even though it&#8217;s the first impression (people most often do judge a book by it&#8217;s cover after all)</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222361</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222361</guid>
		<description>Hey Brian.

I wouldn&#039;t disagree with any of that.  I&#039;m hoping I&#039;ve at least hinted at the caveat that an illustartor who at least makes the effort to become familiar with the text will do a good job.  

I&#039;m with you on the movie adaptations and I think Clueless is as excellent adaptation of Emma. 

I think Dracula is a good example of a text that could be improved from being &quot;graphic novelised&quot; because the original story is  epistolary and in my experience that is not a reader-friendly format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brian.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t disagree with any of that.  I&#8217;m hoping I&#8217;ve at least hinted at the caveat that an illustartor who at least makes the effort to become familiar with the text will do a good job.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m with you on the movie adaptations and I think Clueless is as excellent adaptation of Emma. </p>
<p>I think Dracula is a good example of a text that could be improved from being &#8220;graphic novelised&#8221; because the original story is  epistolary and in my experience that is not a reader-friendly format.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Fies</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222328</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Fies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222328</guid>
		<description>Rod, I read the piece and digested it a bit. (I also posted this reply on the Wisen but wanted to join the conversation here, too.) First, I appreciate the first four paragraphs, which I think give a well-deserved spanking to the whole &quot;public art&quot; school of literary criticism. The idea that an author ceases to have a worthwhile opinion about his/her art once it&#039;s published--or at least no more valid an opinion than anyone else--is ridiculous, but I&#039;ve heard that argument made.

However, a minor counter-example comes to mind: I&#039;ve had conversations with readers who enthuse at great length about some bit of symbolism or meaning I put into my book and I know darn well I didn&#039;t do it deliberately (as in your &quot;Prisoner&quot; Rover example, the real answer is usually that it was cheaper, quicker or easier to do it that way). I don&#039;t argue. If they got something out of my work that I didn&#039;t necessarily put into it, I&#039;m happy. I&#039;ll take the credit. It&#039;s out of my hands.

While I think it&#039;s usually a mistake to do graphic or illustrated adaptations of great (and not coincidentally public domain) works, it doesn&#039;t offend me the way it seems to do you. If the new version has an interesting take or twist, it&#039;ll endure as a barnacle attached to the original. If it&#039;s bad, it&#039;ll slip off and vanish very quickly. I think &quot;West Side Story&quot; is an enduring adaptation of &quot;Romeo and Juliet&quot;; Baz Luhrmann&#039;s &quot;Romeo + Juliet&quot; probably isn&#039;t (though time will tell). 

My more fundamental objection is that most classic works simply don&#039;t need to be redone graphically. A good illustrated story or graphic novel is exactly that from the start; words and pictures both convey meaning and neither tells the whole story by itself. In general, I find that graphic &quot;enhancements&quot; of prose classics dilute the stories into pretty thin broth. There&#039;s a mismatch in information density. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but just try doing a comics version of Dickens sometime (which I did in school once): you&#039;ll need to draw three or four pages just to superficially cover the characters and action on one page of his. If I recall correctly, Will Eisner was adapting &quot;Oliver Twist&quot; when he died; I&#039;m kind of glad he didn&#039;t finish. As great as Eisner was, Dickens simply didn&#039;t need him.

But if someone wants to take a shot, I have no objection. That is one of the beauties and purposes of public domain. Anybody who wants to take a crack at Dracula or Sherlock Holmes is welcome to try, and occasionally it produces something interesting and good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rod, I read the piece and digested it a bit. (I also posted this reply on the Wisen but wanted to join the conversation here, too.) First, I appreciate the first four paragraphs, which I think give a well-deserved spanking to the whole &#8220;public art&#8221; school of literary criticism. The idea that an author ceases to have a worthwhile opinion about his/her art once it&#8217;s published&#8211;or at least no more valid an opinion than anyone else&#8211;is ridiculous, but I&#8217;ve heard that argument made.</p>
<p>However, a minor counter-example comes to mind: I&#8217;ve had conversations with readers who enthuse at great length about some bit of symbolism or meaning I put into my book and I know darn well I didn&#8217;t do it deliberately (as in your &#8220;Prisoner&#8221; Rover example, the real answer is usually that it was cheaper, quicker or easier to do it that way). I don&#8217;t argue. If they got something out of my work that I didn&#8217;t necessarily put into it, I&#8217;m happy. I&#8217;ll take the credit. It&#8217;s out of my hands.</p>
<p>While I think it&#8217;s usually a mistake to do graphic or illustrated adaptations of great (and not coincidentally public domain) works, it doesn&#8217;t offend me the way it seems to do you. If the new version has an interesting take or twist, it&#8217;ll endure as a barnacle attached to the original. If it&#8217;s bad, it&#8217;ll slip off and vanish very quickly. I think &#8220;West Side Story&#8221; is an enduring adaptation of &#8220;Romeo and Juliet&#8221;; Baz Luhrmann&#8217;s &#8220;Romeo + Juliet&#8221; probably isn&#8217;t (though time will tell). </p>
<p>My more fundamental objection is that most classic works simply don&#8217;t need to be redone graphically. A good illustrated story or graphic novel is exactly that from the start; words and pictures both convey meaning and neither tells the whole story by itself. In general, I find that graphic &#8220;enhancements&#8221; of prose classics dilute the stories into pretty thin broth. There&#8217;s a mismatch in information density. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but just try doing a comics version of Dickens sometime (which I did in school once): you&#8217;ll need to draw three or four pages just to superficially cover the characters and action on one page of his. If I recall correctly, Will Eisner was adapting &#8220;Oliver Twist&#8221; when he died; I&#8217;m kind of glad he didn&#8217;t finish. As great as Eisner was, Dickens simply didn&#8217;t need him.</p>
<p>But if someone wants to take a shot, I have no objection. That is one of the beauties and purposes of public domain. Anybody who wants to take a crack at Dracula or Sherlock Holmes is welcome to try, and occasionally it produces something interesting and good.</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222192</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222192</guid>
		<description>I agree up to a point Silus, I think yes, you are right, Blake&#039;s work is more inspired by, than a lteral interpretation of the words.  

I think that is also what Prof Carey was getting at, so you are in good company.  But I think that Blake could have tried a little harder to show us what Milton was getting at, as a poet himself.  I mean, I think at times that Blake is too determined to draw genitals-like shapes and symbols into his work, than actually conveying the text - just look at the snake above.

I don&#039;t make a distinction between high and low art though, as far as I&#039;m concerned they are all cartoons, or all art:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree up to a point Silus, I think yes, you are right, Blake&#8217;s work is more inspired by, than a lteral interpretation of the words.  </p>
<p>I think that is also what Prof Carey was getting at, so you are in good company.  But I think that Blake could have tried a little harder to show us what Milton was getting at, as a poet himself.  I mean, I think at times that Blake is too determined to draw genitals-like shapes and symbols into his work, than actually conveying the text &#8211; just look at the snake above.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t make a distinction between high and low art though, as far as I&#8217;m concerned they are all cartoons, or all art:)</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222187</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222187</guid>
		<description>Good points, I think you are right in seperating it into two problems Mahendra, 1. the illustrator&#039;s interpretation of the teaxt and 2. the imperfect business model of many publishing companies.

I like the Carroll joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, I think you are right in seperating it into two problems Mahendra, 1. the illustrator&#8217;s interpretation of the teaxt and 2. the imperfect business model of many publishing companies.</p>
<p>I like the Carroll joke.</p>
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		<title>By: silus</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222154</link>
		<dc:creator>silus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222154</guid>
		<description>Great post on an interesting topic.  I think there&#039;s something different about Blakes work on Paradise Lost though - they are more &quot;Fine Art&quot; works *inspired* by the text than literal illustrations, aren&#039;t they?  To exist alongside without being a part of the text.  Not really of the same ilk as the generally grotesque &quot;Graphic Novelized Classics&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post on an interesting topic.  I think there&#8217;s something different about Blakes work on Paradise Lost though &#8211; they are more &#8220;Fine Art&#8221; works *inspired* by the text than literal illustrations, aren&#8217;t they?  To exist alongside without being a part of the text.  Not really of the same ilk as the generally grotesque &#8220;Graphic Novelized Classics&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mahendra singh</title>
		<link>http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/a-lack-of-illumination-the-difference-between-the-authorillustrator-and-the-illustrator/comment-page-1/#comment-222153</link>
		<dc:creator>mahendra singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/?p=10327#comment-222153</guid>
		<description>It is almost impossible for an illustrator to match up the internally-visualized world of an author since most literature is non-visual, even when describing things. This problem is compounded by the business practices of most publishers, who match up art &amp; story according to fees charged, or more insidiously, according to the fashionable nature of the illustrator&#039;s style or their personal connections (often the same thing?)

As an illustrator I know I will never make the author truly happy, I work for an honest compromise … or even better, I work with a dead author who can&#039;t complain! Right now I&#039;m doing Carroll&#039;s Snark &amp; blogging it as I go along, so far, Carroll has been the model of politeness!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is almost impossible for an illustrator to match up the internally-visualized world of an author since most literature is non-visual, even when describing things. This problem is compounded by the business practices of most publishers, who match up art &amp; story according to fees charged, or more insidiously, according to the fashionable nature of the illustrator&#8217;s style or their personal connections (often the same thing?)</p>
<p>As an illustrator I know I will never make the author truly happy, I work for an honest compromise … or even better, I work with a dead author who can&#8217;t complain! Right now I&#8217;m doing Carroll&#8217;s Snark &amp; blogging it as I go along, so far, Carroll has been the model of politeness!</p>
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